The gospels promote a pagan man/God idea which was fashionable at that time. Paul is a liar who transformed God’s prophet Jesus into deity.

Posted on May 13, 2021 by Dr. John Oakes wrote in General, History, Other Religions, Q & A, Reliability of the Bible.

Comments:

Can you show the continuity of the chain of transmission of So-called Gospels? These were not revealed by God but promote a pagan concept of God/Son or Man-God which was in fashion during times of Jesus. You will know after your death that what have you done to yourself. Good Luck!

For your kind information, I am not reluctant to debate but you are unable to provide historical proof. Paul was a liar who transformed God’s prophet Jesus into deity. If Jesus was God, why he was unable to deliver successfully the concept of Trinity to the Jews? Why did he talk so vaguely? If Jesus was son of God because he was born of Virgin, Adam was more deserving to be called son of God because he had neither father nor mother

Responses:

I thought we were having a respectful discussion. I am disappointed that you resort to personal insult and attacks. That is not very loving and it does not set a good example for your prophet. Let’s keep it respectful, please.

Yes, I do know the chain of transmission, and these are not “supposed Gospels.” Luke was a close personal associate of Paul and no one doubts that Luke is the author of Luke. John was one of the three inner circle of Jesus and Irenaeus reports that he actually met Polycarp who met John. By the way, the continuity of the chain of transmission of the Qur’an is quite solid. We can be quite confident that Muhammad wrote most if not all of the Qur’an (or actually he spoke it and others wrote it down). The confidence of transmission of the gospels is roughly the same as the Qur’an. We have the writings of men in the second century who knew John personally and who report that he wrote the gospel of John. This is really strong evidence. No serious scholars doubt that the actual apostle Paul wrote Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians and 1 Thessalonians. We can be very very confident that the four gospels represent eye-witness accounts of Jesus. There is no evidence that they do not. Matthew, Mark and Luke were all written within 35 years of the death of Jesus, when there were literally thousands of eye-witnesses to Christ still alive. I propose that more than 3/4 of those reading this letter will still be alive 35 years from now. There is no reason to not believe what is written in the gospels.

Bottom line, who is more likely to know what Jesus said and did, people who knew him and who lived around him, or a man who lived 550 years later who never even visited Palestine? The answer is really obvious. If you want to know what happened in Mecca and Medina in the late sixth century, Muhammad is a good source, but as for what happened in 30 AD, Matthew, Mark and John, who lived there and at that time are far more likely that a Arab person who never even read the Bible. This is quite obvious. We can let the Qur’an tell us what Muhammad did and said, but not what Jesus did and said. How would he know? What were his sources? Jesus was killed on a cross, no matter what Muhammad said.

It is disrespectful to call a person a liar. You never met Paul. You have no negative information on his character. If you are going to accuse him of lying, you should have some really good evidence. Paul shows every evidence of a strong character. Besides, all the New Testament writers were declaring the same thing. John himself said, “In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We have beheld his glory, the glory of he one and only Son of God.” This is not Paul. This is the consensus of ALL the writers of the New Testament. There is no first century Christian author who denied the deity of Jesus.

All humans are sons of God, including you and me, but Jesus is a unique Son in that he is God-in-the-flesh. Adam was not God-in-the-flesh. He did not raise anyone from the dead. He did not calm a great storm or walk on water. Jesus did these things.

Jesus DID successfully get many Jews to believe that he is God. All of the first Christians were Jews who believed that Jesus is God. Your statement is a false one. Did he convince all Jews? No, he did not, but tens of thousands of Jews believed that he was God. The reason they believed is that he was executed on a cross and raised from the dead.

You continue to ignore my claim that those who knew Jesus were far more likely to know what he did and said, and how he died than a man living 550+ years after he died. How do you explain Muhammad’s supposed superior knowledge, if he never even came to Palestine and obviously never interviewed those who saw the events.

Besides, Muhammad has a few quite significant character flaws. In all of our exchanges I have not pointed these out, but now that you are going after the character of Paul, I will respond. The Qur’an presents him as a good man, and I personally believe that he had some positive and admirable qualities, but the Qur’an itself presents him as one who had a bit of a temper. He declared that Allah allows men to take no more than four wives, then he abrogated that for his own personal pleasure, as he married somewhere between 18 and, according to some reports, closer to 30 women. Of course, he did not have sex with all of these women, but he consummated more than a dozen of these marriages. Many of them were merely ceremonial, but he married his favorite wife (after his first) at the age of 12. Muhammad went on numerous raids of caravans. He engaged in offensive war campaigns. When the Jews of Medina did not join his political coalition he ordered the massacre of more than 500 Jewish men. Muhammad has much blood on his hands. Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, James and Luke do not.

Muhammad said that none of the words of the Qur’an can be changed. The examples below are ones I found reading the Qur’an. I would imagine that there are others.

Sura 6:34 “no one can alter Allah’s promises”

Sura 6:115 “No one can change His words”

Sura 10:64 “There is no changing the promises of Allah”

Yet Muhammad abrogated a number of his earlier statements:

Sura 2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Surah 16:101

When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not.

Sura 53:19 In “a moment of weakness” Muhammad said: “Have you thought of Al-lat, al Uzza and AManat? These are exalted intermediaries whose intercession is to be hoped for.” Later abrogated.

Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:19-22

Now tell me about Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat,

The third one, another goddess.

What! For you the males and for him the females!

That indeed is an unfair division.

Surah 2:219:

They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.” They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: “What is beyond your needs.” Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-

Later abrogated by the ayah Surah 5:93 was revealed to stop drinking wine.

O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (Dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, – of Satan’s handiwork: Eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

The earlier passages in the Qur’an in which Christians and Jews are considered also OK are abrogated by the later ones. The ones which are nice are abrogated by the violent ones. This is very concerning in the present context.

Praying toward Jerusalem was abrogated by praying toward Mecca.

Only four wives abrogated in the case of Muhammad. 33:50 and 33:52

One hadith in particular addresses abrogation. It cites Abu al-A‘la bin al-Shikhkhir, considered by theologians to be a reliable source of knowledge about the Prophet’s life, as saying, that “the Messenger of God abrogated some of his commands by others, just as the Qur’an abrogates some part of it with the other.” Muhammad accepted that God would invalidate previous revelation, often making ordinances stricter.

Muhammad declared both the Old and the New Testament to be Injil–inspired, yet you consistently undermine the very injil that Muhammad recommended. This is not consistent.

Sura 5:47 The people of the Injil [gospel] shall rule in accordance with Allah’s revelations which are found there. Anyone who does not rule in accordance with Allah’s revelations there are wicked. Also, “the people of the book” (ie Jews) are told to follow the Old Testament teachings. Sura 6:91-92 says that Allah sent the Book of Moses “And this is the book which we sent down”

Sura 3:83 We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit.

Sura 29:46 And dispute ye not with the people of the book but say: We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and that which came down to you.

So, I ask you, what is this word that God gave to the followers of Jesus? Is it not the four gospels? Was it some lost books? Are Paul’s writings among this injil to the followers of Jesus? What is your evidence for the particular books you say that Muhammad recognized as inspired? Were they lost? Were they corrupted? If so, what is the evidence of this corruption?

You went after the character of one of the heroes of Christianity. You opened this door. OK, fair is fair. What do you say about the more than 500 Jews murdered in cold blood because they would not ally themselves with Muhammad? What about the multiple wives he took after he told his own people that four should be the maximum? What about the fact that Muhammad changed his mind? What about his famous temper? What about these things?

John Oakes